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	<title>Comments on: saying &#8220;no&#8221; to lisbon</title>
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	<link>http://www.challengerappears.com/blog/2008/06/saying-no-to-lisbon/</link>
	<description>Rob Fahey on games, media, journalism and politics.</description>
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		<title>By: Rob Fahey</title>
		<link>http://www.challengerappears.com/blog/2008/06/saying-no-to-lisbon/comment-page-1/#comment-1338</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Fahey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 22:13:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.challengerappears.com/blog/?p=66#comment-1338</guid>
		<description>No idea what was up with the site - I&#039;ve got Google to check it over again and it all seems clear now. There might have been a problem before I upgraded Wordpress to the latest version...

I don&#039;t know whether it was a majority of votes, but I certainly got a strong impression from many Irish people that they were voting not against Lisbon, but as a general protest against the level of immigration to Ireland. Perhaps in some parts of the country, things have gone better - but certainly in the West and in the border counties, and indeed in parts of Dublin, I&#039;ve seen first-hand serious racial tensions that go beyond anything I&#039;ve seen in Britain.

I agree, though, that most of the No vote was a rebuke to the Government and to Brussels - and on that point, I think it was richly deserved. If a document is on the one hand presented as essential, and on the other hand, utterly incomprehensible - then there&#039;s no sensible thing to do other than to reject it and demand something clearer and more defined.

And yes, how the EU handles this No vote is going to be absolutely crucial to the perception of the union by its people. If Ireland is strong-armed into ratifying the treaty in some manner, I suspect the EU may find the rug swept from under its feet in public support terms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No idea what was up with the site &#8211; I&#8217;ve got Google to check it over again and it all seems clear now. There might have been a problem before I upgraded WordPress to the latest version&#8230;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know whether it was a majority of votes, but I certainly got a strong impression from many Irish people that they were voting not against Lisbon, but as a general protest against the level of immigration to Ireland. Perhaps in some parts of the country, things have gone better &#8211; but certainly in the West and in the border counties, and indeed in parts of Dublin, I&#8217;ve seen first-hand serious racial tensions that go beyond anything I&#8217;ve seen in Britain.</p>
<p>I agree, though, that most of the No vote was a rebuke to the Government and to Brussels &#8211; and on that point, I think it was richly deserved. If a document is on the one hand presented as essential, and on the other hand, utterly incomprehensible &#8211; then there&#8217;s no sensible thing to do other than to reject it and demand something clearer and more defined.</p>
<p>And yes, how the EU handles this No vote is going to be absolutely crucial to the perception of the union by its people. If Ireland is strong-armed into ratifying the treaty in some manner, I suspect the EU may find the rug swept from under its feet in public support terms.</p>
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		<title>By: John O'Kane</title>
		<link>http://www.challengerappears.com/blog/2008/06/saying-no-to-lisbon/comment-page-1/#comment-1317</link>
		<dc:creator>John O'Kane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 22:16:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.challengerappears.com/blog/?p=66#comment-1317</guid>
		<description>And more importantly, whats up with your site - google has it marked as malware and eset security thinks your wp-stats include is a trojan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And more importantly, whats up with your site &#8211; google has it marked as malware and eset security thinks your wp-stats include is a trojan.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: John O'Kane</title>
		<link>http://www.challengerappears.com/blog/2008/06/saying-no-to-lisbon/comment-page-1/#comment-1315</link>
		<dc:creator>John O'Kane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 20:14:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.challengerappears.com/blog/?p=66#comment-1315</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think the no vote was about xenophobia or racism, certainly not a majority of votes. You are looking at a country that has 300,000 new immigrants in a very short amount of time and the vast majority of people are fine with that. Yes, I&#039;ve heard some poor rumblings at times, but overall things are fine. As it stands between open borders and jobs for anyone in the EU, and open fishing rights for the French and Spanish, Europe has had more than net gain from Ireland&#039;s participation in the EU. Most people ignore the Fishermen, Farmers and Taxi drivers when it comes to the xenophobia.

A lot of the no vote came from a petulant rebuke to both the government, which could only shake a finger at people, European politicians showing the stick and a strong belief that a better agreement could be created on various hard to understand issues about how power would be shared and changes of rights. That most of the real issues were actually non-issues was not strongly contested enough by the Yes camp because even they were having trouble understanding the treaty. It was a bitch to sell - so people played safe and voted no - let the politicians get something better or clearer, sure didn&#039;t we vote again for Nice. 

For what it&#039;s worth I voted Yes, but I am very interested in seeing how this is all handled. It&#039;s a real test for people looking to further their agenda&#039;s via Europe but being held back by the silly democratic tendencies of a small Island nation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think the no vote was about xenophobia or racism, certainly not a majority of votes. You are looking at a country that has 300,000 new immigrants in a very short amount of time and the vast majority of people are fine with that. Yes, I&#8217;ve heard some poor rumblings at times, but overall things are fine. As it stands between open borders and jobs for anyone in the EU, and open fishing rights for the French and Spanish, Europe has had more than net gain from Ireland&#8217;s participation in the EU. Most people ignore the Fishermen, Farmers and Taxi drivers when it comes to the xenophobia.</p>
<p>A lot of the no vote came from a petulant rebuke to both the government, which could only shake a finger at people, European politicians showing the stick and a strong belief that a better agreement could be created on various hard to understand issues about how power would be shared and changes of rights. That most of the real issues were actually non-issues was not strongly contested enough by the Yes camp because even they were having trouble understanding the treaty. It was a bitch to sell &#8211; so people played safe and voted no &#8211; let the politicians get something better or clearer, sure didn&#8217;t we vote again for Nice. </p>
<p>For what it&#8217;s worth I voted Yes, but I am very interested in seeing how this is all handled. It&#8217;s a real test for people looking to further their agenda&#8217;s via Europe but being held back by the silly democratic tendencies of a small Island nation.</p>
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